Simple rule that needs everyone to follow. Carrier rate includes x hours or minutes of load and unload time, anything after that is chargeable. It's in many tariffs so apply it like many do the FSC and don't waiver.

Not to long ago Kevin said this.
Quote
Fifth and just as important at the end of the meeting I always thank them as I do at the beginning for attending as I know it is again taking UNPAID TIME AWAY FROM THEM AND THEIR FAMILY. However it is mandatory attendance and we do get things accomplished.

The key seems to be compensation. Therefore we do not pay we consider it off duty not driving.
Unquote

Guess he changed his mind.

meslippery

i had apointment time for 5.30 pm i was an hr early. I got out of dock at 11.30 am next morning. the night was spent getting woke up by beeper when the shunt backed up to take trailers out or in. delivery was 8 hundred miles away for 8 am the next morning.broker load i phoned broker said get in and out times on bol get paid i did that. load was delivered to custommer at 2pm next day. i never got paid cause not in contract. how is a driver supose to know what in contract

meslippery you have hit the nail on the head. Mr. Snobel, why is it unacceptable for a carrier to do work for free, yet many expect their drivers to do so? As far as I am concerned, if I am doing anything at the direction of, or for the benefit of the carrier, then I should be paid for that. Trucking is not a hobby, it is a business, done for financial gain.

RE;Funny how, in a TAXI, if you are kept waiting in the cab, while stuck in traffic, The driver does not turn the meter off. The charges just keep adding on.

Any driver out there ever come to a complete stop on the 401?
If your paid by the mile you just turned off the meter.
Stop and go and crawling along,not much better.
often less than min. wage?
Carriers should charge by the hour for service, and pay by the hour.

meslippery

Kevin, this is a very clear problem that the general freight industry seems incapable of addressing. What amazes me is that waiting time is not seen as an additional expense.In any other industry people and machines delayed not by their own fault demand compensation. If that driver and truck was not being held at this dock doing nothing, both would be making money somewhere else. The return doesn't have to be the same as when the engine is burning fuel and wearing out parts, but there needs to be a return for the investment in equipment and the person held up still needs to pay their mortgage.

I believe the issue of unpaid waitng time is one of the biggest reasons for high driver turnover rates, but trucking executives don't even recognize it. Instead they believe that things like road speed governors and nice trucks will help the problem so drivers don't shop around for a faster truck to put in more miles when they are moving and will look good stepping out of a nice rig. I worked for over 30 years in the private sector and got paid for every minute I worked whether driving, loading, or waiting, whether at a customers, or on the side of the road waiting for a tire man, or whatever it was. Then I went to a well known Ontario general freight company. They are one of the good ones in the business and treat drivers very well when compared to their competition and I enjoyed my time there. However the number of times in 4 years that I got shortchanged on waiting times and other non-mileage type payments aggravated me so much I left and returned to where I had been. I am getting older and am fighting serious arthritic pain sometimes, so the heavy physical aspects of my work can be tough. However, I GET PAID FOR EVERY MINUTE OF IT! When EOBR's hit the road I don't see any more excuses for not paying drivers (and the trucks) by the hour for everything they do that is part of the job.

Paul L.

Paul you have figured it out.
I got in to trucking in my teens, loved it
just pay for my time. I have no control over delays
not caused by me.
Speeding trucks ? 30 years driving class 8 trucks.
Who can keep there job with a few if any speeding tickets ?
You are right speeding trucks are not a problem.
It was the OTA and some of its members who brought this
to the Gov.

Get ready for EOBRs.

That has many problems even if you are paid by the hour.

2hrs from home 3:00pm long weekend. Stop NOW for 10 hrs.

meslippery

Paul, thanks for the intelligent insightful response. I would say, that in most cases. DUE TO DEREGLUALTION most people do not file rates,or care about rates. A lot of so called 3P.L and 4P.L's and with the advent of load boards, the prevalance of cheap rates,m and not much in tthe way of accessorials being paid hav edisappeared. The larger companies still negotiate upfront, and pay accordingly. The big problem is once the goods are delivered not much we can do anymore as carriers. All the customer (whoever is paying the bill to the carrier) say is here is the freight charges, that is all I am paying. I do however bet, some of them charge their customer waiting time, but do not pay the carrier waiting time.

As an industry we are to quick to let people off the hook. It would be wise to point out, Tariffs, basically do not exist, rates are whatever the market will bear. meslippery uses my PAY FOR attending meetings as an example. Drivers get paid what ever a company is compensated for. We all have heard he is against speed limiters. I AM NOT STATING MY POSTION HERE, AS IT IS A PEROSNAL OPINION, HOWEVER THE LAW IS THE LAW.

As for EOBR's that again is circumstantial for pay. It is an Electronic means to calculate and let the truck and engine keep track of miles/hours/ etc of the engine moving by RPM's etc. It would not reflect or raise the pay. It certainly would alleviate the need for paper logs, and give the authorities more control of what and how carriers operate. Having discussed this issue with many people in the industry and studying how it is handled overseas, it would/could be a good solution for some of the problems in our industry. Drivers for the most part are paid by the mile. In 1976 when I first entered this business the saying then was 'THE FURTHER THEY RUN THE BROKER THEY GET" nOT MUCH HAS CHANGED REALLY.

Speed Limiters are a great idea, EOBR's will remain to be seen. Meetings and compensation, for them will determine, what and how if any payment is due. It can be in many forms not outright $$$. Bonuses handed out at meetings, to recognize you in front of your peers is sometimes better, than the bonus themselves. Any time you can train a driver, advise them of changes in the industry and what and how to operate safer, better, smarter, and within the law, we as MANAGERS are doing our job. jimh ANYTHING for the benefit of the company. I am not sure how AN ANNUAL SAFETY/BONUS/INFORMATION/CHANGES IN RULES AND REGULATIONS/ NEW HOS RULES/NEW SPEED LIMITERS RULES/NEW SECURITY RULES AT THE BORDER/ NEW LOADING REQUIREMENTS/ O/O VERSUS COMPANY DRIVER RULES/DRIVER CONCERN/ DRIVER ISSUES/BENEFIT CHANGES FOR THE DRIVERS, AND THE LIST GOES ON. ETC. are only for the benefit of the company. If you own a truck it is also for your benefit not just the company you work for. The difference is a PRIVATE company can usually build into the cost of their goods, the delivery and any extra amount, into the selling price of the goods and charge accordingly. As carriers it is not that simple. How many carriers do not know a lumper charge exists until you arrive? (JUST 1 example)

I will state though again, RAY, JAMES, AARON, LOU, DAN, HARRY et al, and myself are not paid to write here, We are trying to illustrate and point out issues, be they good or bad in our industry.

By the way, "meslippery" if you want to take me up on my previous offers, I will be at TRUCKWORLD on THURSDAY AFTERNOON AND MOST LIKELY SATURDAY AS WELL. SO, melsippery,here is your big chance, drop the annonymity and meet me at the show, we can discuss whatever bothers you, Maybe I could use some of your concerns, and issues, in a future blog. You may even have some valid points to raise, I am always willing to listen. I'll even buy you a coffee as compensation, for taking the time out of your hectic schedule, unless of course, you are logging the time as ON DUTY NOT DRIVING.

I wish Kevin would make up his mind.
He has said.

{Treat the carriers the same way you would like to be treated. STOP ASKING THEM TO DO EXTRA WORK FOR FREE.}

{meslippery uses my PAY FOR attending meetings as an example. Drivers get paid what ever a company is compensated for. We all have heard he is against speed limiters. I AM NOT STATING MY POSTION HERE, AS IT IS A PEROSNAL OPINION, HOWEVER THE LAW IS THE LAW}

Then in the next paragraph he said.

{Speed Limiters are a great idea, EOBR's will remain to be seen.}

Theres nothing personal going on here Kevin
I have never met you, dont know you except from your blog.
I just like to have this form to voice my opinion.
I thought I was discussing what bothers me.
What bothers me is subject to change without notice.

But the idea that EOBRs wont change the way drivers are
paid is interesting.
I dont know if there is a federal min. wage law but
if there is thats some thing to think about.
Also are drivers overseas not all paid by the hour?

meslippery

At the sake of sounding REDUNDANT I will put this issue to rest with the following answer about hourly pay versus mileage pay.
Whenever anyone in any country in the world accepts a job, they know the parameters going in. If I got paid by the hour I could have retired years ago. However If I take my annual salary and divide it by the number of hours I work (ON CALL, ACCIDENT CALLS, DRIVERSRS CALLING FOR DIRECTIONS, DRIVERS CALLING FOR BREAKDOWNS, DRIVERS STUCK AT THE BORDER, ) then I am the lowest paid person in the company.,

Overseas drivers I am sure it depends on what country. I know some drivers based in GERMANY who are company drivers get paid by the hour (READ COMPANY TRUCKS) and some get paid by the mile. Like eveyrone they want long trips and are gone for days at a time. A driver does not get paid and cannot be on the road in most of Europe unless hauling FRUIT OR FOOD (perishable) on Sundays. If they did not make it home they have to sleep in a truck stop. THEY DO NOT GET PAID>

Again you are confusing issues. Companies that have a product to sell, may in some cases have their own fleet, they pay the truck drivers and helpers by the hour. Anyone here bought something off of Sleep Country or THE BRICK,. Their drivers and helpers are paid by the hour. It is all built into the costs of what you are buying. 2 seperate equations.

All drivers overseas not paid by the hour. NOT IN THIS LIFETIME. NO!

Hi Kevin. I see what you are trying to say and I also see what meslippery and others are trying to say, but all this bickering won't help anything. We all need to think about this and come up with a plan and stick to it! I have been trucking since the fall of 1983 and have seen almost no improvements to the industry at all! Log books are a joke and have helped no one! Rates have stayed about the same for 25 years. Trucks have not improved in 20 years or more( There is NOTHING that a new truck can do that a truck from the 80's cant' do)! Most good drivers with lots of experience have moved to a different industry. Wages may have gone up a bit, but when you get university educated people running these trucking companies, they will surely find a way to screw the drivers out of a bunch of their wages by deducting safety or productivity bonuses or some other never never program that smells good up front but has no end benefit for the driver. Why not do away with a bunch of the paperwork and programs and office personnel who shuffle these unneccesary papers around. Then, pay drivers and owner operators by the hour.(They already have a book that documents everything they do each 24 hour period and I bet that would fix the problem of people trying to leave out on duty time from their log book!) This legal document would also be a record of the time spent loading, hauling, waiting for customs, unloading (or waiting to be unloaded), and driving time to return back to where you started. Now you turn in your hourly bill to your customer with the legal document that must be provided by the driver and they will see where all the time goes. Next time, they will make sure the load is ready before they send you to get it and they will make sure that the customs papers have made it to the broker before the truck gets to the border and the forklift will be waiting to unload the truck when it gets to the dock. Trucking companies also need to quit forcing owner operators to purchase new equipment every 3 - 5 years. The only thing this does is keep the o/o's under the gun so they won't turn down freight because they have to have enough revenue to make their monthly payments. Everyone would eventually benefit if guys would just say "no" to cheap freight! If your salesman can't get your hourly rate from your customer, then you should leave it sit on their dock. If your equipment is paid for, you can wait for the right rate. You will be able to get drivers with tons of experience if you paid them for everything they do, so you will have less accidents and freight claims and eventually happier customers. Your drivers probably won't need governed trucks because they will be paid for their time instead of trying to make ends meet on the piddly wage they are usually paid.( Who would drive 120 km/hr if they were getting $30.00/hr to drive?) Trucks and trailers would last longer from getting a bit of grease and a little T.L.C. once in a while(if the driver got paid for pre-trips, he may even take the grease gun with him when he crawls under the truck to do the mandatory inspection that almost is never actually done because he doesn't get paid for it!) As far as EOBR's, bring them on only if they are going to be used to make sure the driver or o/o gets paid for everything they do, every day! This would be another device to record the hours that each load took to complete and that info could be sent to the customer along with the freight bill. There are some loads, like L.T.L. that would pose a bit of a problem figuring out how to charge the customer, but that is not the driver's problem, so pay him for his time and make sure your sales people charge enough for each shipment to cover the hourly rate that is needed. In 2001, I decided to work only by the hour. I tell customers my hourly rate and remind them that I charge from the time I leave my house until I get back home to my house. Many customers don't want to pay that way, so usually they get someone else to do it cheaper. There have been times when I have been so slow, I took on other jobs to fill in, but I have a few good customers who want good service from someone with over 25 years experience and they pay what I charge. Most of my work is in Central Alberta, but I have hauled loads to Winnipeg, Vancouver, Fort Nelson,B.C., Fort McMurray and other long trips like that and charged by the hour - round trip! I am not always busy, but I always get my hourly rate or I stay home. If everyone would charge for everything they do and pay their people for everything they do, this would be a lot better industry and we wouldn't be faced with the shortage of experienced drivers!

100% correct and I agree. Too bad we are in an industry that continues to shoot ourselves in the foot. Maybe someone at Truckworld tomorrow can show me some solutions.

Makes perfect sense to me Stephen.
But as you say customers will often seek out the lowest cost
provider.
I would support EOBRS being goverment mandated if they also
mandate driver hourly pay. You know to "level the playing field"
Lets up the ante a bit while we are dreaming.
Lets get the same deal as the towmotor driver, the guy that moves
the same load as you do just not as far.
Hourly pay overtime after 44 hours.

meslippery

Be careful Stephen Large. You are starting to talk sensibly, - not allowed in this industry.

OK... When the carrier is late - I'm talking DRASTICALLY LATE for an agreed upon delivery and the customer is kept waiting and waiting with the lamest excuses possible being provided by the transport company's dispatcher, do they reduce their rate one penny???

The answer is NO freakin' way PAL!!! It all balances out in the end...

Hey Brian, I assume that you are not a driver who has spent all day running around gathering a load where every shipper made you wait an hour or two and then the last shipper closes at 5:00 pm (even though you called them at 4:00 and told them you were 45 miles out and traffic was a bit heavy), so because you got there at 5:05 pm, you had to wait 15 hours to load your last shipment. Then, you drove your speed limiter equipped truck as fast as it would go and didn't stop even to use the washroom, and when you got to Canada customs, you found out that a couple of those shippers from yesterday forgot to fax their paperwork to the broker, so you had to park behind Customs and walk across town to the brokers office and wait until the paperwork gets there and then deliver the papers to Customs and wait for them to release you so you could again push the truck to it's limits and not stop to eat or pee until you got to the customer's dock. (I know, you just spent 15 hours sitting last night so you could have had a meal and a pee then) I have been doing this for over 25 years and almost without fail, if the truck is late for a delivery, it is wayyy out of the driver's or the carrier's control. Have you ever had to wait and wait all night at work without eating, showering, using the washroom because a truck was 5 minutes 'late'?

Steve Large has made some excellent comments but we have both been in the industry a long time and both know that the more things change the more they stay the same! The carriers are running out of suckers to work without compansation here so their collective solution now is to enlist people from other countrys into voluntary slavery in Canada for a specified period of time. Shame on the carriers and our government for not only allowing but encouraging such behavior instead of paying a fair wage!