"Fifth and just as important at the end of the meeting I always thank them as I do at the beginning for attending as I know it is again taking UNPAID TIME AWAY FROM THEM AND THEIR FAMILY. However it is mandatory attendance and we do get things accomplished."
Mr. Snobel, if it is a mandatory meeting, then why are you not paying them to attend? I would not be working for a company that expects me to do things for free for them. And people wonder why it is difficult to attract and retain good drivers.

Train M did you read this ?
I went to one 4 hr meeting booked 4hrs was not paid.
Did not attended the next two, was called in to explain why,
I told them I was not paid for the last one I attended.
Well you have to attend it is mandatory I was told.
I said if your not paying then its voluntary.
In the end I got paid by the hr to travel to the meeting place
attend and drive home plus gas. The meetings were on Saturdays
which I rarely worked.
I question the legality of mandatory unpaid work.

meslippery

INTERESTING POINTS YOU BOTH RAISE. THAT IS WHY IT IS ON A Friday AND EARLY IN THE MORNING. MOST DRIVERS HAVE EITHER JUST COME BACK OR GETTING READY TO GO ON A TRIP. It is the FRIDAY of US Thanksgiving weekend. The breakfast and lunch are paid by the company, The safety awards are paid for by the company and the FUEL/IDLING BONUSES are paid by the company.
I guess I am glad not every driver always has their hand out wanting more and more. Most of our drivers, understand the need to be educated, and retrained constantly, just like us. It is an ongoing battle, to keep current with all the changes in the industry and the drivers LOOK TO MANAGEMENT FOR THE INFORMATION REQUIRED TO DO THEIR JOB PROPERLY. As a highway driver, I would hope they are just as concerend about the company's CVOR as they are their own CVOR. ESPECIALLY with the new rules (CVSA2010) coming into effect in 3 months.

Can we force them to show up NO! Mandatory to the point we hope they all show and want to be aware of changes, educate, voice their concerns, discuss, learn, YES!!!!!
Mandatory means a lot of things, and we all cannot have our hands out all the time to take, we all have to give sometimes, THAT IS CALLED COMPROMISE!
P.S. We have great drivers retain many and in today's ECONOMY THE GRASS MAY ALWAYS LOOK GREENER

Yeah, I never liked the idea of unpaid safety meetings, though I realize there's no tangible revenue generated by teaching safety. One driver service called everyone in for a mandatory breakfast once a year followed by safety talk and a film, etc., which they admitted they were doing to please their clients. "Our customers demand we have these meetings," the owner told us deadpanly. This agency also handed out the safe driver awards at those breakfasts, those little TSA pins, but forgot to send away for my 15 year award. That's when I decided to find another job-I go out of my way to attend a Saturday morning session, without sleep, after working a 12 hour shift, and they forget my award. Believe it our not, those little metal badges are important to drivers, a small token of acknowledgement that means much more than the pennies they cost to stamp out of a cheap alloy.

Another transport company I worked for would get around paying the drivers to attend safety meetings by calling them "customer service seminars" or something like that, and they had them frequently, like once a month. The implication was that the drivers were really customer service agents to their clients and contractors, and not technically "employees" of the transport company. Then again, this was a good family company that stayed in business 80 years, paid a fair wage and wouldn't hesitate to help out the food bank if they needed a truck or a move.

Good comments and the part about getting paid I know is a sore spot for many drivers and owners alike.
In many cases the safety directory is just the messenger and has no say if the drivers get paid to attend the mandatory meeting or not.
I heard something from a fleet owner the other day. He said "I bring in coffee and donuts to all the meetings. Usually I end up taking them home because it is just me and a few managers that attend the meeting".
I have something to offer that may be a solution. A company that I worked for made the meetings mandatory to attend. The meeting was not paid directly rather it was part of the safety or performance award. If you did not attend the meeting you did not receive your bonus.
In the 6 meetings that I held for the company each meeting would only be missing less than 5% of the drivers. You would think that the drivers that were not attending would be the drivers that had lost their safety bonus. I can only re call one such situation.
Rather than donuts it was either a breakfast or a lunch. This gave the drivers opportunity to mellow out and get into the off duty state of mind.
The US Thanksgiving weekend is traditionally the safety meeting weekend, but if this is not the weekend you are planning it, give the drivers ample notice of the meeting. One company I know of uses the first Saturday of March and November every year and again there is limited drivers missing the meeting.

If the company doesnt believe the meeting is important, there is no better way to convey that to the drivers than by not paying them. I wouldnt be there either.

Any body who has been a driver for 15 years or more may have there hand out,
but have not been getting more money just a lot more BS.And your just proving it.
Google wages cica 1985 then compare them to whats being paid today.
Add in inflation and your see for your self.
Just say NO to unpaid work (Read unpaid meetings)and all other unpaid work
This is a job not a hobby.

meslippery

Couldn't have said it any better myself meslippery. I doubt very much that Mr. Snobel's company moves freight for free, I don't know why he would expect his employees to give away their time for free.

Well I guess I better clarify a few things. First of all When I write I am writing on my behalf as invited to by TRUCKNEWS.COM not on behalf of my employer.
Next I guess I should also clarify, it has been a long time since I have worked an 8 hour day in this business. I do not get paid overtime, that is the way it is. In today's economy either you work or every company will find someone else who will. At least by commenting you have taken the time to show you are interested inothers and how they conduct business as well. For that I applaud you all.
Next I will admit it is not a great idea but sometimes you just have to do things that need doing. I am not happy about phone calls in the middle of the night but I take them. I am not happy aobut coming in on weekends but I do. I do not think I am alone by any stretch of the imagination.Certainly not in this business anyways. Again my comments are my comments not the company's.
I will finish thisweek's comment/blog and have my last comment by saying MIKE Kroetsch Thanks for the suggestion I think that is a great idea. and ties everything into one, while being mandatory it is paid at the same time.

As for everyone else, Controversial issues will always be around, and I thank you all for your comments and feedback. They are always nice to read, as I am sure can see at least it proves we have people reading them. Comments are always welcome, whether good or bad, I have also learnt (THANK YOU MR. RUDOLFS) that there is not I assume anything personal. Feedback is always welcome.

It sure as hell is not hand out, if it's mandatory, pay for it. The insurance companies and government policies pretty much make it mandatory. Talk to any of these safety people and they will tell you these meeting properly conducted lead to lower losses, so shouldn't the company look at paying drivers for them as an investment. Let's be honest though the nonpayment for these events has as much to do with log books as the money. If you pay them it has to be logged as on duty not driving. I don't mind telling you that for everything I've argued with safety departments that they wanted me to log and I didn't, they sure took notice when they demanded I attend the meetinge and when I turned my logs in I logged it. They didn't care for my stance of logging that but wanted me to log a ten minute fuel stop instead of flagging it.

As for the long weekend part; when I ran the U.S. (25 years) the only long weekends I every stood a chance of getting was theirs just because so much of the time they we open when we were closed so we ran. So I would rethink the stance you take which reads to me like you are doing your drivers a favour by holding them then.

Below is the defenition of mandatory, I don't see where it has so many different meanings especially in this contaxt as proven by the first entry.

man·da·to·ry (mnd-tôr, -tr)
adj.
1. Required or commanded by authority; obligatory: Attendance at the meeting is mandatory.
2. Of, having the nature of, or containing a mandate.
3. Holding a League of Nations mandate over a territory.

B.E. Bigrigger I believe your stance in trying to prove your point is misguided. THe ON DUTY NOT DRIVING, is a Provision whereby you are still in CARE AND CONTROL OF YOUR VEHICLE. NOT DRIVING IT THOUGH. I.E. LOADING UNLOADING ETC. ATTENDING A MEETING IS NOT LOGGED ON AS ON DUTY NOT DRIVING BUT YOUR POINT IS WELL TAKEN
HERE WHEN I GOOGLED MANDATORY IS THE DEFINITON I FOUND:
adjective

Definition:

1. compulsory: needing to be done, followed, or complied with, usually because of an official requirement

2. with power of mandate: resembling or having the power of a mandate

3. authorized to administer territory: having a mandate to administer a region or territory
nEEDING TO BE DONE OR COMPLIED WITH

So if I work 12 hours a day for 5 days Mon- Fri Driving
I can work 8 hrs Sat and 8 hrs Sun at Walmart and those
16 hrs are not by law logged? Thats not what I was told.
Walmart, meeting no care or control of a truck.
Whats the difference?

meslippery

Kevin Please don t put this issue to bed so fast.
I just noticed Quote(I will finish this weeks comment/blog
and have my last comment by saying)
I would realy like to know if other work on my days off
should be logged. If its got nothing to do with trucking.
I was told I have to log it by law.
Perhaps If you don t pay for attending meetings its like
a company picnic off duty.
But again if its mandatory it should be paid and logged.
I look forward to claification.
Also this by my count this comment 12 for your blog the most
in its history the next highest was 5 must be a real sore
spot for drivers.
I am thinking you regret opening this can of worms and now want
to close it.

meslippery

MESLIPPERY i owe you a debt of thanks, I have gone to the FMCSA handbook and here is their definition of ON DUTY NOT DRIVING
point (9) Section 395.2 Performing any compensated work for a person who is not a MOTOR CARRIER. Therefore you are correct if you work off duty at a Walmart(example) then you are on duty not driving
ON Duty not driving includes all duties other than when you are driving a CMV. waiting to be laoded or unloaded pretrip inspection time border clearance times repariing or awating with a disabled vehicle all time providing a breath or Urine sample and any other work in the capacity employ or service or a motor carrier. The key seems to be compensation. Therefore we do not pay we consider it off duty not driving. I am sure we could s0plit hairs here until the cows come home. Thanks though as you forced me to consult my HANDY DANDY FMCSA handbook, and I am remembering what i have fogotten.

Hi Kevin your comment "it has been a long time since I have worked an 8 hour day in this business. I do not get paid overtime, that is the way it is. In today's economy either you work or every company will find someone else who will" This is actually what is wrong with this industry that we are all in, if you don't work 15 hours a day , go to unpaid meeting or come in on saturday or sunday to do business without pay or time in lieu , you are not good and they replace you. We haul freight for peanuts because if we don't somebody else will do ! I'm suppose to put work ahead of my family because if I don't they replace you ! you will say that what you need to do, well I'll say this is wrong!

Mr. Snobel, unfortunately your "Handy Dandy' FMCSA manual is an American publication, NOT a Canadian one. The applicable law in Ontario at least is "ONTARIO REGULATION 555/06". It does not mention anything about being paid as far as determining duty status. It seems that you are clutching at straws trying to justify not paying your drivers for attending meetings. I wonder if your office staff, or the employees of "Truck News", for example, would take kindly to being told to attend a mandatory half day meeting on their day off, with no pay?
Also, in an earlier post you said you were not happy getting phone calls in the middle of the night. What about the guy at the other end? Do you think HE was happy? At least you were at home in a nice, warm house, he was probably sitting on the side of the road somewhere, broke down or waiting for a load. And you were probably not paying HIM either.

P.S. good post RJG

P.P.S Mr. Snobel, as Harry Rudolfs seems to have told you, these messages are nothing personal against you or your company, they are just comments on the terrible state of driver / management relations in this industry. I know of no other industry that so arrogantly treats its key employees with such utter disdain and contempt.

Good dialogue here and I believe Kevin deserves a lot of credit for sticking around and defending his position, even though some of the responses have been somewhat confrontational in tone. I think JimH said it best in his PPS and we can have these discussions without making it personal.

I think it's also important to remember that if a company doesn't compensate drivers for attendance at its safety meetings, that alone doesn't make it a bad company to work for. As Ray Haight pointed out in his most recent blog on this site, you have to look at the entire package. If the carrier's mileage rate is above average, if it has the ability to keep you busy and get you home regularly, if it offers opportunities for advancement, if its safety bonuses are attainable and lucrative, if it offers other perks such as referrel bonuses, free use of maintenance facilities, discounts on tires/fuel, etc...maybe a 1/2 day unpaid once or twice a year is a good investment.

If your company is exploiting you on a regular basis and routinely expecting you to work for free...it's time to move on. I also wanted to address JimH's comments on whether Truck News staff would "take kindly to attend a half day meeting on their day off with no pay."

I can say we definitely spend many a weekend and many an evening attending industry events (trade shows/conferences, etc.) with no additional compensation or time off in-lieu. Fortunately the crew we have is pretty passionate about what we do - it's not just a paycheck (which I guess is why I'm posting on this blog on a Saturday night). I believe most people that have stuck around this industry do so because it's in their blood, to some degree or another. I know that's the case with Kevin and the reason he puts in many unpaid hours, does more than what's required of him and understandably has the expectation that others he works with do as well.

In a perfect world, we'd all get paid for every hour we work. But the trucking industry never sleeps and the sad reality is, as RJG said, there's always someone who will come along and do your job for less. I also think Harry made a very eloquent point. Payment can come in many forms - it doesn't necessarily have to be an hourly wage. It could be a simple gift or gesture of appreciation that doesn't have to cost a lot of money. Be creative, as Mike from TS&CS has been. Give drivers a reason to want to attend.

One of the biggest problems this industry has is this 'us vs. them' mentality. Too often, drivers are at odds with their carriers and dont understand the pressures their carriers are under in a ridiculously low margin business. Carriers are at odds with their drivers, because upper management is out of touch with driver issues and haven't taken the time to walk a mile in their drivers' shoes or even ask them how they're doing. The same can be said about the associations that serve as the bridge between the front-line workers and government. Drivers feel the OTA is out to get them. And OTA doesn't do enough to reach out to drivers. If we all stopped fighting each other, imagine the resources and energy that could instead be directing where it's most needed - towards educating shippers and the public about the many challenges this industry faces.

James

If Mr. Mesplippery works for a company that holds a CVOR then meslippery has to book the hours worked as on-duty time. The logs have to be handed in to the main employer.
IF the company does not have a CVOR then he/she does not have to book the hours.
I personally do not agree with not paying drivers for attending the Saturday Safety Meetings. These drives should be paid and given breakfast too. The weekend is the only time to spend with the kids at their favorite sport or repair things around the house. Not to pay them is criminal.
Meetings have to be booked on duty. Lets hope you have enough time off-duty , 36 hours for the reset before going back to work.

I think it was said best by a beaten man. "Can't we all get along".

i think its time we remember what thomas jefferson said. we need a revolution. this country is getting scary. what do they want, everyone on welfare? ive been driving cmv for 44yrs. had 4 accidents. not one chargable to me.iam tired of looking over my shoulder all the time. over regulate the bernie maddoffs of the word not the hard working man. get my point?

CVSA2010 program is unfare as it is being set up!All it going to do is cause the most expert drives to be put out of work and all the industry will be left with is drive no experiance on the nations highway,which will make them more unsafe than they all ready are!I do not unstand how nor why you find nessisary to be going back three years instead of starting fresh,at same time as your 2010 program dose it would be a whole lot morre fare to all the drives in the trucking industry.
And we hear is how much of a shortage of driver there is,What do you is going to happen?Quality driver with the expertise needed to make our highway safe are going to be forced out.Like all the Goverments great ideas you all just do not get it,four wheel driver are the one that need to be regulated not the 18wheels,persons drive the cars are a bigger problem than
the trucker that have put on approx:150,000 miles a year compared to the 10,000 or 20,000 the average drive put on their four wheel car!All you in Goverment know how to do is put good hard working people out of work!!!!Your just a bunch of dam fools
who think you know whats best infact you can'nt control your own life why do you wish to contrl everyone elses???You folk in Washington are doing nothing but distorying this great country of ours(not yours)OURS!!!!Safe is Not ABOUT SAFE with you people it is ALL ABUOT CONTROL and best Believe IT will BIT you ALL inthe ASSets